Interview with Gerry Bergstein – Portray Perceptions

Don’t Look Up, 2022, 58×81 inches, oil and collage on canvas

Gerry Bergstein is a well known Boston painter and trainer who has massively influenced many artists for the reason that Eighties. I lately was viewing his work on-line and have become re-enchanted by his astounding expertise and big selection of artwork historic references, types, processes, and material. His morphing and juxtapositioning of visible and cultural opposites has made for a extremely ingenious and private artwork in contrast to some other. I significantly love his resistance to doctrine and his contrarian takes on the probabilities for artwork. I made a decision to ask him for an interview and was extremely delighted and grateful when he agreed to speak with me on a Zoom name.

Ars Longa Vita Brevis, 2022, 67×101 inches, oil and collage on canvas

The late Francine Koslow Miller wrote in a 2002 Art Forum review of a Gerry Bergstein exhibition on the Howard Yezerski Gallery.

“Bergstein pursues darker considerations in his vaguely architectural black-and-white work of mounds. An amalgam of decaying mountain, medieval constructing, and phallus, the mound all the time seems to be imploding or exploding in these works, which resemble pencil drawings on broken paper (right here the artist etched traces right into a ready floor of black paint overlaid with white). For Mount, 2002, Bergstein moved his stylus forwards and backwards throughout the extremely detailed central kind in strokes imitating the rhythmic gestures of a cellist. Within the monumental Self-Portrait as Tower of Babel, 2002, the mound is below siege, pierced with luscious black holes; it begins to topple earlier than a romantic cloudy sky. References to Leonardo’s Deluge drawings, Brueghel’s Tower of Babel, and Piranesi’s ruins abound on this anthropomorphic citadel, whose stony pores and skin seems to be ripping aside. (It’s laborious not to think about the World Commerce Heart as effectively.) Hidden among the many gaps within the tower are self-portraits and different small photos: insect caricatures, a paint tube, a Guston “eye,” a thumb, a rocket ship.

In these works Bergstein equates nature and tradition with private ambition and beliefs. The mounds might posit civilization as a lovely pile of rubbish, however additionally they counsel Bergstein as existentialist antihero on the foot of his personal mountain of ambition (his purpose being to realize world relevance whereas staying true to himself). As Albert Camus ends his Fantasy of Sisyphus: “This universe henceforth with no grasp appears to him neither sterile nor futile. Every atom of that stone, every mineral flake of that night-filled mountain in itself kinds a world. The battle itself towards the heights is sufficient to fill a person’s coronary heart. One should think about Sisyphus blissful.” Bergstein likewise transforms the torment of his battle into victory.”

Francine Koslow Miller

Idea and Apply, 2019, 22×30 inches, Oil on Paper

shut up element from Dithering Machine, 2022, 86×102 inches, oil and collage on canvas

Nicholas Capasso wrote in his essay Expressionism: Boston’s Claim to Fame
(Initially printed in Painting in Boston: 1950-2000)

 

“…Bergstein distilled all these sources”(Max Ernst, Rene Magritte, de Kooning, Gorky, and Guston) “…into a private method during which Surrealist strategies of free affiliation and irrational juxtaposition had been dropped at bear on expressively distorted photos created with an incredible facility of craft. This artist may draw and paint like an expressionist, an Summary Expressionist, a veristic Surrealist, and a trompe-l’oeil grasp—and convincingly mix these types on a single canvas. In the course of the eighties, this stylistic spectrum was matched by an equally various vary of images drawn from artwork historical past, self-portraiture, nature, fashionable tradition (particularly tv), and the suburban cultural panorama—once more, all on the identical floor. “
“…I continued to discover the spatial tensions obtained by juxtaposing thick and skinny paint. I had all the time been all for juxtaposition of photos (Magritte). I used to be discovering that juxtapositioning of various surfaces could possibly be simply as unusual and surreal.”

The purpose of Bergstein’s method and method to imagery is basically humanistic and expressionistic. He seeks to precise ineffable psychological states conditioned by his personal expertise of the world—an admittedly chaotic and complicated world—as a mannequin for emotionally apprehending bigger points in up to date society, psychology, epistemology, and ontology. These weighty themes, although, are all the time tempered by humor. Because the artist explains it, “My purpose is to do for portray what Groucho Marx and Alfred Hitchcock did for motion pictures and tv. My work is a illustration of the paradoxes, ironies, and absurdities of our media-bombarded tradition, translated via the language of paint.” Elsewhere he wrote, “I nonetheless marvel how the unexplainable creation of the universe, the light-speed motion of all these subatomic particles, and billions of years of evolution may have led to squeezing the Charmin, tax returns, life insurance coverage, the artwork world, and different unusual outcomes. If, as Einstein stated, ‘God doesn’t play cube with the universe,’ perhaps he was taking part in bingo.”

Roadmap

Roadmap, 2021, 22×30 inches, oil on paper

From Gerry Bergstein’s website:

Bergstein’s work contrasts the superior and the trivial, the excessive and the low, the manic and the melancholic utilizing sources from Brueghel to “The Simpsons.” He’s the recipient of an Artadia grant (2007), a profession achievement award from the St. Botolph Membership (2007), and a four-week residency on the Liguria Research Heart in Genoa, Italy (2006). His solo exhibits embody Gallery NAGA and the Danforth Museum; Howard Yezerski Gallery, Boston (’04, ’02, ’99, ’97); Stephan Stux Gallery, NY (’99); Galerie Bonnier, Geneva, Switzerland; Zolla Lieberman Gallery, Chicago, IL; and the DeCordova Museum, Lincoln, MA. He’s represented within the collections of The Museum of High-quality Arts, Boston; MIT; DeCordova Museum; Davis Museum at Wellesley Faculty; IBM; and lots of others. He has been reviewed broadly within the native press in addition to Tema Celeste, ARTnews, Artwork in America, and Artforum. He has been on the college on the College of the Museum of High-quality Arts, Boston for over 20 years.

Larry Groff:
What had been your early years rising up like? What was your loved ones like? 

Gerry Bergstein:
I grew up within the Bronx and Queens in New York, the place I stayed until I went away to varsity and left New York. We lived in Bayside Queens, which was nothing like Manhattan. I might be very stunned if anybody else on my block ever went to the MoMA, as an example. Nevertheless, my father cherished to attract and paint; my mom cherished music and literature.  I could not have turn into an artist if not for his or her assist. Like when my mom instructed me to go to see that Max Ernst present. If my mom had been alive at the moment, she would have turn into a Music or an English professor, however she didn’t get to go to varsity, sadly. My father was an accountant. When he was youthful, he did loads of fantastic reasonable drawings of his household; lots of them are hanging in my residence.  He may need made it as an artist,  however his household discouraged it, and he wanted a job to assist the household. He continued to attract and play the piano like Mozart, and  Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata was certainly one of my favorites. So I grew up round classical music and older artwork. 

My dad and mom didn’t get up to date artwork. One time, after I was a lot older, I went with my mother to the Guggenheim, which had simply reopened with a Dan Flavin present after having been closed for a time, and the very first thing she stated, “Properly, I assume they don’t have the artwork right here but – they’ve simply put the lights. (laughs)  And so, a part of my challenge with excessive and low artwork is that I’ve that skepticism of my mother, however alternatively, I additionally like loads of that stuff. Finally, I got here to love Dan Flavin. So I’ve combined emotions about excessive and low, and I like combining them. So I’m a contrarian I all the time see each side of all the pieces, which is each enjoyable and wholesome. 

as but untitled, 2022, 40×26 inches, oil and collage on paper

LG:
 I learn that your mom inspired you to see a Max Ernst retrospective on the MoMA within the early 60s. I used to be curious so I appeared on-line to see if there was any details about that present and located the catalog for the present on the MoMA web site – I discovered a quote that appeared prefer it may have additionally been describing your work. 

“From Ernst’s frottagee, decalcomanlas and flows of pigment emerge a procession of visions typically obsessive and infrequently prophetic: new landscapes inhabited by new phantoms and animals; new adventures and new terrors revealed by the rarest and most vital goals. The world of Ernst could be turbulent, eruptive and violent. It will probably additionally provide with irrational lucidity and calm, an evidence of the magic of objects, the black humor of human foibles and the apparition of unseen presences. Just like the trying glass, the Imagined world of Ernst is a reverse picture. It is usually a universe.”

Are you able to say one thing about your curiosity in Ernst and some other influences which are most vital, particularly the surrealists?

Gerry Bergstein:
I used to do these little summary, very detailed ink drawings. They had been principally summary, however my mother should have acknowledged one thing about their complexity, so she despatched me to the Max Ernst present, which blew me away. I agree with the assertion you gave.

new adventures and new terrors revealed by the rarest and most vital goals, the world of Ernst could be turbulent, eruptive and violent“, is one thing I’m very all for in addition to “The magic of objects”.  Magritte put it in another way. Magritte did a portray of a marriage ring floating on high of a piano. He had this concept of secret and magical affinities between objects, you couldn’t put these affinities into phrases, however I like that concept. I assume that’s an entire Surrealist concept. And the final line that Max Ernst’s work as a universe additionally rings true to me. Though my work is a universe–it’s the universe inside my mind and my studio. Possibly the universe is within the mind of the beholder.

I acknowledge stuff from engaged on an image. I’m not superb at observing actuality in nature. I’m form of unhealthy at it, perhaps, as a result of I’ve by no means performed it that a lot. Nevertheless, what I’m good at is exploring my mind visually in response to the marks I make, I’ve this sgraffito course of, during which the paint stays moist for a month, and I can draw into and out of it. I mix various things. I’ll depart the studio after which come again the subsequent day, and it’s telling me one thing, to reinforce this or to deemphasize that. I’m fairly good at that. It’s simply who I’m, which includes free affiliation and rorschaching. Gregory Gillespie talked about rorschaching quite a bit and is just like what I do – however completely different.

Hamburger Categorical, 1979, 24X50 inches, Oil

Larry:
I’m questioning if the painter Ivan Albright has some affinities with you? It’s not surrealism or rorshaching, however the depth and drive of his imaginative and prescient maybe are associated to you and Gillespie’s work.

Gerry Bergstein:
Completely, I feel the ironic factor is about these polarity issues I went to Chicago and noticed Albright’s portray, That Which I Should Have Done I Did Not Do (The Door), a few years in the past. I noticed an image of it in a e-book after I was a teen, and it completely blew me away, however once you rise up near the precise portray and have a look at one sq. inch of that door, it seems like a microscopic Jackson Pollock. So many little fascinating marks. I like artwork that refers, deliberately or not, to the entire of Artwork in an unique method.

Gerry Bergstein:
Another factor about surrealism, have you learnt the portray Hide and Seek by Pavel Tchelitchew?

LG: Positive.

Gerry Bergstein:
I cherished it as a teen, after which in 2017, I retired from instructing, however in 2019 I used to be persuaded to show a grad seminar, however I used to be shy and nervous about my listening to and was afraid I wasn’t updated sufficient. So to assuage myself, I visited MOMA simply two days earlier than that class began in 2019. And I walked as much as the third ground and there was Cover and Search hanging once more after it had been in storage for like 30 years. The wall textual content stated that in 1961, which was the 12 months I first noticed it, was voted by the general public to be the preferred portray in our assortment. Properly, I assumed that was such an affirmation. I don’t like it as a lot as I used to, however I assumed, ‘what goes round, comes round’.  It suffered from acclaim, rejection, and re-acclaim. I feel that’s so nice.

Prefer it or not, the politics of artwork aesthetics within the artwork world come into my work, in a really ambivalent method.

Reconstructive Surgical procedure, 2022, 44x33x10 inches, oil and collage

LG: 
You studied on the Artwork College students League?

Gerry Bergstein: I studied on the artwork college students league for a 12 months with Harry Sternberg. Who was an ideal trainer. He taught me what freedom was. Harry Sternberg was pals with Jack Levine. And his work, at occasions, was just a little bit like Jack Levine. Edwin Dickinson was proper subsequent door. And Lennart Anderson was there on the time. I moved to Boston by chance. I had no clue in regards to the Boston expressionist college, however I assumed it was ironic that I moved to Boston and have become considerably concerned with that custom and Boston moderately than New York.

LG:
Why did you progress to Boston?

Gerry Bergstein:
I needed to go to a spot that was affiliated with the faculty. In any other case, I might have been drafted.

LG:
What was your expertise going to the museum college (College of the Museum of High-quality Arts at Tufts College) again then?  You studied with Henry Schwartz, Barney Rubenstein and Jan Cox, a Belgian Surrealist painter. Was Barney the primary trainer that can assist you study realist and trompe l’oeil portray?

Manufacturing facility, 1973, 5×5 ft., oil

Gerry Bergstein:
Henry Schwartz taught me extra; he had these weird setups that had been surreal, and so they jogged my memory just a little little bit of a few of Bruce Connors’s early work. Surreal setups with musical scores and portraits and various things pasted it collectively, and so they had been pleasant and hilarious. I discovered quite a bit from that undertaking and I assume that’s what bought me all for trompe l’oeil. Barney was extra of a pal. I adored Barney and discovered quite a bit from him, however it wasn’t a teacher-student factor; it was extra lengthy conversations. Plus, I cherished his work. Jan Cox woke up sure issues in my creativeness. I took a design class with him, and he was candy and accepting of bizarre concepts.


I skilled the museum college in numerous methods. I used to be a  pupil there within the final two years of the extremely educational curriculum to the scholar revolution in 1970, which modified that fully. Quickly after that, Clement Greenberg started to carry sway in Boston with new college in school and Kenworth Moffett, a  Greenburg acolyte, being employed because the M.F.A.s first up to date curator. Clement Greenberg was seen by some as being on the apex of modernism in Boston; though his affect was already in decline in New York. I preferred modernists like Morris Louis and Jules Olitski however I assumed that the concept you couldn’t present realism or surrealism attributable to some second-rate philosophy was simply infuriating.
Although the museum college was actually educational for the primary three years I went there, I managed to seek out my method via that, and I’m glad I had some publicity to, you recognize, actual educational drawing and that form of factor. Although I wasn’t that nice at it,

Gorky’s Room 1976, 84×84 inches, oil on canvas

LG:
Do you assume painters want that form of educational coaching?

Gerry Bergstein:
That’s an excellent query. The museum college modified radically in 1969. The scholar strike through the anti-war motion. The pinnacle of the varsity was fired, and a brand new head of the varsity changed him, and insurance policies had been modified so college students may make their very own curriculum; you didn’t should take any course you didn’t need to. For the primary few years, the outcomes had been disastrous. However ultimately, it form of labored itself out. Do all artists want that educational construction? I’m undecided, I feel I wanted it, however I don’t know. What do you assume?

LG:
After I was at school, I sought out conventional realist coaching. A number of the summary painters whom I love essentially the most additionally went via that educational rigor. However then there are different summary painters who had been self-taught or didn’t get a lot educational coaching, who I additionally like. So I don’t assume there’s any proper solution to study artwork, though I do assume it’s important to study artwork historical past effectively. I don’t imagine in only one proper reply and check out to withstand artwork doctrine.

Gerry Bergstein:
There’s nobody reply; I completely agree. Yeah. I imply, I feel de Kooning was an ideal draftsman and I am keen on his early work; I don’t assume Pollock was such an ideal draftsman.

LG:
Nevertheless, Pollock did research with Thomas Hart Benton, who helped give him an understanding of construction.

Gerry Bergstein:
That’s precisely proper. I feel his compositions have one thing just a little bit in frequent with Benton’s compositions.
Pollock knew what he was; he knew the terrain. Children going to artwork college at the moment get little or no of that, though perhaps that’s a gross generalization, I don’t know. I feel it will probably nonetheless be attainable to get it in order for you it sufficient.  Gregory Gillespie as soon as stated to me that regardless of going to the San Francisco Artwork Institute, he thought of himself self-taught as a result of it was strict summary expressionism when he was there and didn’t provide a lot in the best way of studying tips on how to be a realist painter.

LG:
Possibly that’s not all the time such a nasty factor typically. Gillespie might have taught himself the best way he needed to color realistically, however his time at San Francisco Artwork Institute ultimately helped him turn into such an incredible painter; he should have gotten one thing out of it, simply not realist portray chops. Gregory Gillespie is amongst my favourite painters.

I Love Portray, 2019, 4x2x4 inches, combined media

Gerry Bergstein:
I keep in mind a narrative about Chuck Shut, whom I feel went to Yale. He was a reasonably good summary painter again then. I heard him communicate as soon as at Harvard, and he stated, The issue with summary portray was that he would go away his studio considering, ‘that is the perfect factor that’s ever been performed on the planet’. Then he would come again the subsequent day, and it appeared like full crap; he needed to do one thing that he could possibly be verifiable that he was doing it proper. He additionally needed to get as far-off from de Kooning as attainable. So if de Kooning used loads of colour, he used black and white. If de Kooning was completely into the act of portray, he was watching TV whereas he was portray. His transfer to be self-consciously away from that’s fascinating to me as effectively. In a while, he joked that he had made extra de Kooning’s than de Kooning himself with all his little “coloured pixels” in grids that you simply see in his later work.
So we’re on this form of lineage. In all probability if I hadn’t taught, I don’t assume I might be desirous about the stuff a lot in any respect, however since I taught, it’s a vital factor to me.

LG:
It’s most likely not useful to all the time be reacting towards one thing or rebelling. In some unspecified time in the future, it’s important to determine what you need to be.

Gerry Bergstein:
The act of rise up in itself doesn’t assure good artwork. There must be some form of component of affection and discovery within the work, not simply rise up.  I would like each love and rage.

The Gleaners, 2016, 13.5×12.5×8 inches,combined media on panel

LG:
How did your profession as a painter evolve after ending college? What was life like for you again then? Had been you in a position to paint full-time? Did you begin instructing straight away?

Gerry Bergstein:
after I first bought out of college. I bought a touring fellowship and spent 4 months in Europe, which was life-changing.  After I bought again, for round 5 or 6 years, I labored full-time as an image framer. I didn’t get a lot time to color then. I needed to make a residing, however I made it some extent by no means to surrender. 

In 1973 I bought a grant to go to an artist in residency in Roswell, New Mexico, for six months. They gave you a stipend, home, and studio. I went there and bought to know some severe artists. We grew to become pleasant. I bought to know their work habits and know what it was wish to have time to work, which was terrific. 

After I returned in about 1977, I bought a job instructing on the evening college within the Museum College. Nevertheless it paid 5 {dollars} an hour, my dad and mom would ship me cash occasionally, however I used to be residing hand-to-mouth. I made pals with some artists; Miroslav Antic was one. He was a trainer on the Museum College. He was a lot pushier than me and had a pal who opened a gallery. He introduced this pal to my studio, who then provided me a present. I additionally bought a job instructing at Harmony Academy, which was just a little higher than being an image framer because it was part-time however just a little bit extra money. I used to be struggling alongside. After which, I had a present at Lopoukhine/Nayduch Gallery in 1979; nothing offered, however there was loads of curiosity from artists, and it was very encouraging.

Grants, so I used to be starting to do okay. I’m a really shy particular person. For a time, I might get away in a sweat simply strolling right into a gallery, not to mention asking them to have a look at my work.

I went to New York and fell in love with artists like Susan Rothenberg, Robert Colescott, The unhealthy portray present on the new Museum, and Philip Guston, Oh my God. I assumed this was the last word negation of the Greenbergian tyranny.

Self Portrait, 1979, 60X72 inches, Oil

Parts Of Fashion, 22X30 inches, Oil/Paper

LG:
Has Philip Guston’s work influenced you ultimately? Are you able to speak about this just a little?

Gerry Bergstein:
After I first noticed Philip Guston in 1975 at BU when he first began doing the Klan heads and I loathed it, however then in 1979, I used to be doing this self-portrait of me lined with a blanket in mattress, and the form of the blanket was quite a bit like a type of Klan hoods. There was a cigarette with actually thick smoke popping out of it; then I remembered that present, and prefer it was love. I nonetheless love Guston. I grew to become very enthusiastic about this new course in portray. My pal Miroslav was form of a mentor then. Henry Schwartz, whom I adored, rejected that work fully, however I didn’t thoughts as a result of I knew Henry cherished me. 

I bought right into a present in 1981, Boston Now, on the Institute of Modern Artwork, the place yearly they might placed on a present with about eight Boston artists; it was actually thrilling, after which I bought into one other Boston Now present the subsequent 12 months after which bought picked up by Stux Gallery. After that, I began promoting each single factor I made. From about 1981 to about 1995. I offered all the pieces. On account of this, I used to be in a position to educate full-time on the Museum college as a result of I used to be exhibiting. Instructing at first was only a day job, however then I discovered quite a bit from it, and it was actually enjoyable.

Effort At Speech, 1981, 60X90 inches, Oil

LG:
Do you see your self as a part of a continuum of the custom of Boston Expressionist portray, equivalent to Hyman Bloom,  Jack Levine, David Aronson, Karl Zerbe, Henry Schwartz, and others after them? 

Gerry Bergstein:
I’ve considerably combined emotions in regards to the Boston expressionists. I like Hyman Bloom. You already know,  folks like Arthur Polonsky and David Aaronson, I assumed they had been just a little too slick, too crowd-pleasing, nearly too romantic, however I assume they’ve all had a giant affect on me. Unusually sufficient, the 12 months I give up instructing, nobody had checked out these guys for many years, I made a decision to do a slide present of all of them for my class. The scholars got here as much as me and stated that is the perfect artwork we’ve seen in years; we like it! 

 LG:
 Would you name your self a Neo-Expressionist, or do you reject being labeled as a part of any specific college?

Gerry Bergstein:
Would I name myself a neo-expressionist? I did after I was within the 80s. Together with Francesco Clemente, Jorg Immendorf, David Salle, and Julian Schnabel. I used to be all for a few of their work; I positioned myself in that spectrum. However there was loads of unhealthy Neo-Expressionism too.  Is Philip Gustin a Neo-Expressionist? I don’t know

The Irascibles (3D), 2013, 6x12x10 inches, combined media

LG:
I feel his late work may slot in with that on some degree. I anticipated that you simply may react towards being labeled as a Neo-Expressionist; I assumed perhaps you’d resent being labeled, That you simply’re in a college of 1.

Gerry Bergstein:
I’m extra into my ancestral lineage. Possibly starting with Bruegel and Hieronymus Bosch, happening to Piranesi, Velasquez, and Goya, after which up via Ensor, Rousseau, the Surrealists, the German expressionists, and the Summary Expressionists like de Kooning. Arshile Gorky, Gorky was a giant affect, after which the Neo-expressionists are additionally my forebearers.&nbsp

However what you need to do is so as to add your individual take to no matter you’re doing–you need to make it your individual. You’re advancing the custom just a little step at a time. it’s a really broad custom. I imply consists of near-total abstraction and likewise artists like Bouguereau and Fragonard. Late in life, I out of the blue fell in love with Fragonard, who is sort of my exact opposite. His sentimentality is so blatant that I simply can’t assist however like it. Nevertheless, Boucher, I don’t like as a lot.

A Transient Historical past of the twentieth Century, 2015, 67×21 inches, combined media

LG:
I don’t know if you happen to’ve seen the brand new Synthetic Intelligence picture software program the place you give textual content prompts to mix imagery gleaned from tens of millions of photos on the internet. I noticed lately the place somebody mixed a Bouguereau nude and a few form of blue monster.

This form of AI surrealism is, most of the time, fairly dreadful, however I nonetheless assume it could possibly be helpful for producing concepts visually. Type of like drawing thumbnail sketches. I attempted this some time in the past, writing within the immediate, Picasso portray of the Tower of Babel, to see what may come up. It was fascinating what it selected to do.

Gerry Bergstein:
It’s fascinating and terrifying on the identical time.  Is the painter going to be just like the chess grasp, who can now not beat the pc anymore? I don’t know. However what terrifies me one 12 months, I can fall in love with the subsequent.

LG:
 I assume the purpose I’m desirous about is that a lot of our lineage is open for reinterpretation and making it new. Like perhaps making hybrids like medieval-neo-expressionism or cubist-photorealism. Expertise, in addition to our up to date mindset, permits the previous to proceed in new, thrilling methods. Portray is way from being lifeless. 

Gerry Bergstein:  
Portray has been declared lifeless for effectively over 100 years. (laughs)
Previous and future generations look at the identical points via the lens of their tradition and thru their know-how. Some issues might evolve technically and culturally, however the massive points like life and demise, love and intercourse, energy and rage all keep the identical.

as but untitled, 2022, 40×26 inches, oil and collage on paper

LG:
That’s an excellent level. 

You’ve talked up to now about your fascination with juxtaposing contrasting imagery and methods of making use of the paint. You usually paint trompe l’oeil parts, particularly flat issues like tape, over or alongside expressionistic parts. You may also incorporate flat, cartoon, or child-like drawings, collage, and sculptural items subsequent to realistically painted fruits. You appear to enjoy combining the excessive and low-brow, sacred and profane, and the banal with the extraordinary. You as soon as acknowledged that your “work distinction the superior and the trivial, the historic and the private, the manic and the melancholic.” Are you able to say extra about why this has engaged you for thus lengthy?

Zip, 1997, 96X69 inches, Oil

I’m Portray as Quick as I Can, 2019, 16 × 12 1/2 inches, Combined media on paper

Gerry Bergstein:
I grew up with studying comedian books, Mad Journal, Twilight Zone, and science fiction magazines, and certainly one of my favourite exhibits that I noticed extra lately as a present of Pulp Fiction covers on the Brooklyn Museum. I feel they’re so nice.

My dad and mom had been very cultured, however they had been very shy and remoted nearly, so I had loads of conflicting influences.  I wish to joke that I used to be the rebellious son of accountants and dentists. I’ve all that obsessiveness in me, however I usually explode. It’s constructed into my psychology; even within the 60s, through the peak of the scholar strike, after all, I used to be completely in favor of peace and civil rights, however there was additionally what I referred to as psychedelic fascism. It was just like the left telling you what to do as like the proper was telling you what to do–‘meet the brand new boss, identical because the outdated boss’–or one thing like that, proper? 
I’ve all the time been a skeptic, and I’m undecided why, however I feel it’s an fascinating place to be. I’ve two quotes on my web site, one from John Lennon and the opposite from Groucho Marx. Lennon says all you want is love and Marx says no matter it’s, I’m towards it! (laughs)

E book I, Handbook, 2015, 20.5×34 inches, combined media on paper

LG:
That’s so humorous. Nice.

Gerry Bergstein:
I additionally assume I can study stuff like what Ivan Albright has in frequent with Jackson Pollock, perhaps not the deepest connection, however it’s there. What does Chuck Shut have in frequent with the de Kooning, and what makes them completely different? I feel the factor about Chuck Shut was that he was temperamentally unsuited to be an summary painter as a result of he was due to the emotional curler coaster of summary expressionist portray– I do that as effectively; if I make one good mark, I out of the blue assume that is the best factor that’s ever occurred in artwork.  The emotional; ups and downs had been an excessive amount of for him. He additionally stated that he thought abstraction was not an enviornment for main breakthroughs at the moment.

Probability Conferences 2002, collage and set up ground to ceiling set up

Probability Conferences 2002, collage and set up ground to ceiling set up

I even have this concept referred to as probability conferences. I did some collages within the early 2000s; a few of them had been installations hanging in my studio, with all the pieces connected to string and clothesline. And there have been all these photograph reproductions of work speaking to one another. Like perhaps The Flintstones and late Leonardo speaking to one another. And I discover that conglomeration satisfying. And, you recognize, folks criticize it as a result of it was like an excessive amount of of an artwork historic joke, and maybe it was, however perhaps it wasn’t fully an artwork historic joke as a result of for me, it was one thing actual. 

LG:
William T Wiley stated in an interview speaking about certainly one of his exhibits, 

“It’s like Sir Francis Bacon’s assertion, “There’s no factor of wonderful magnificence that doesn’t have inside itself some proportion of strangeness.” So, you recognize, excessive and low meet at that time the place authenticate expression emerges, I feel, and a few impressed expression emerges, whether or not it’s with a razor blade or an outdated sock, it’s no matter that specific factor. So you might have one thing there that, the latest post-modern time period is, “Appears like artwork, so it should be artwork.”

How do you determine the steadiness between the disparate parts and the proportion of strangeness?

Gerry Bergstein:
I like that William Wiley assertion very a lot. I feel that form of sums it up for me.

LG:
We talked just a little about Greenbergian Modernism artwork dogma and such, together with the inflexible doctrine of each the proper and left and different related closed ideologies which have influenced your artwork and life. Is there something extra to say about this?

Gerry Bergstein:
The issue with ideologies is that they should be put into follow by folks. All of them have a level of fact, however I feel that non-public ambition is just like the “uncertainty” precept” of the artwork world and most different human worlds. It’s by no means talked about in ideologies however is a hidden a part of their creation. I really feel strongly about that, perhaps as a result of I used to be so shy for thus lengthy and other people round me had been expressing themselves with nice authority–I used to be afraid of them. However that’s not true anymore. Now I gained’t shut up. (laughs)

LG:
Did underground cartoonists like Robert Crumb or earlier cartoonists like George Herriman ever have a lot affect in your work?

Gerry Bergstein:
I like R. Crumb. I like that documentary about him. I’m uncomfortable when he beheads girls in his work. Nonetheless, I feel he’s a superb draftsman and a kinky man in an fascinating method. George Herriman, I like simply because Philip Guston preferred him, however I don’t know him very effectively. I by no means learn psychedelic comics. As an alternative, I learn stuff like Archie and Superman after I was very younger. The Hardy Boys, the American dream, Father Is aware of Greatest, the American Dream–you’re a great boy. You solved the crime–you’re a great boy. That was a complete lie, and that compels me, understanding how we delude ourselves.

Gerry Bergstein’s Palette gurney

LG:
Are you able to say one thing about your portray course of? I’m curious how a lot you consciously plan out your work or do they tackle a lifetime of their very own with out a lot planning beforehand?

Gerry Bergstein:
I’ve had many various processes, however I may give you a number of of them.

After I was nonetheless at school, I used to be in love with Arshile Gorky, and I cherished the form of eroticism and delicacy of his line and form. I cherished his rigorous compositions, however I couldn’t get it in my very own work. And in the future, I had this colour canvas, and in a match of pique, I simply painted the entire thing black and scraped into it with the again of my paintbrush. I assumed, Oh, there’s Gorky’s line. So I fell in love with it. I assumed it was the perfect portray of the twentieth century, and I confirmed it to BarneyRubenstein, and he stated, effectively, it’s very good, however it seems like Gorky. So I discovered that it’s important to add one thing. The method that I’ve most likely used essentially the most, and what I’m engaged on proper now, are these black and white items the place I begin out utilizing black gesso and two or three layers of ivory black with just a little wax medium. So there’s just a little little bit of tooth to it; I blot it and let it dry. I then apply zinc white combined with just a little clove oil which retains it moist for a month. I then use these completely different instruments that I scrape into the image. I normally have a construction in thoughts. 

Dithering Machine, 2022, 86×102 inches, oil and collage on canvas

Dithering Machine, 2022, oil and collage Element

Till about three months in the past, for a couple of 12 months, I used to be doing these orb-like shapes; typically, they jogged my memory nearly like a flying saucer, or Earth, or perhaps my mind.  I might draw within the construction after which randomly, with loads of agitation, transfer my arm round inside the construction. I might attempt perspectival and different methods of creating issues look spherical. Progressively biomorphic shapes or ruined landscapes components of it might emerge, and on daily basis I come into the studio and do it some extra, after which when that each one dried, I might take these little tiny brushes and improve among the shapes that I noticed. They grew to become fairly completely different. 

And in my newer ones, I’ve collaged pictures of various components of various work, and I print them in barely completely different colours from black and white. So the most recent ones have just a little little bit of colour in them once more. In order that’ sgraffito method affords me the chance to rorschach and free-associate and make errors. 

Shard, 2016, 46×30 inches, combined media

I attempted one other factor a number of years earlier for my present Theory and Practice” at the Naga Gallery  I grew to become seduced by digital pictures, for higher or worse. It took me about 10 years to do something I form of preferred. My studio ground is a multitude, it’s a portray in itself, and each time I reduce out just a little determine or historic picture that I’d need to check out in a portray. it falls on the ground together with the drips on the ground, after which I made a decision to pour white home paint on high of all this and canopy up a few of it, however not all of it. I then would stroll round it till I’d discover a composition I preferred. I then had a pal are available with a 200-megapixel Hasselblad, and he took an image of it for me. I photographed it and printed it out massive, very massive on canvas, like 5 by six toes. 

Hap, (after Poem by Thomas Hardy) 2017, 48×74 inches, combined media

LG:
Did you print that your self or did you’ve got another person?

Gerry Bergstein:
Fortunately I had entry to the Museum College’s printers and their Tech Assistants. 

LG:
Wow, that’s nice.

Babel, 2015, 18.5×90 inches, combined media on canvas

Gerry Bergstein:
So I might do this, after which I might take detailed photographs of little components of the ground. So the massive shot was the ground assembly the wall.  There was graffiti on the wall, and there was stuff on the ground. However then I might take these drips of white home paint that will crack after some time. They might additionally get distressed after I walked on them after they had been dry. They might start to seem like fossilized de Kooning pours. So we take footage of them after which reduce them out and collage them into the portray. Considered one of my favorites form of appeared like a fossilized de Kooning. There too, I might paint into them and see issues within the summary shapes that seem like photos, however then in the event that they grew to become an excessive amount of like images-that, they bought corny, I’d must scale it again. It was a form of a juggling act.

Particular Supply, 2016, 19x13x5 inches, combined media on panel

Valentine 2003, 24x24x3 inches, bas aid collage

I additionally had a nonetheless life interval after I met Gail, who’s the exact opposite of me. I used to be deeply in love along with her, and he or she grew to become my muse and led me to make these stunning nonetheless lives of flowers and fruit for 3 or 4 years (within the 90s. – I needed to be very stunning but in addition take care of vanitas, the evanescence of all magnificence in artwork and life.

LG:
These fruit and flower had been nearly little sculptures created from thick paint, proper? 

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, a few of them used toy mannequin railroad staff who had been establishing fruit out of very thick paint. I like the thought of one thing being pure paint and picture concurrently. Like the way you may see in Thiebaud’s thickly painted image of  Ketchup, Mustard, and Mayonaise.

Typically what occurs is that I’m doing one thing for 3 to 5 years and I start to get bored. First, it’s a studying curve, after which after I discovered tips on how to do it and do some actually good work, It begins to be just a little too straightforward, and I get bored. And so I feel the rationale I finished doing this sgraffito for a few years was that I bought sick of it. Nevertheless, now, I’m into it once more.

In a nonetheless earlier section, I might paint fruit on a canvas, after which I might drip white paint on high of it, then I might paint into the white paint, and progressively, there have been so many drips on high of it that they grew to become completely summary. Finally, I misplaced my method, and I went into one thing else. 

I developed a few strategies for a sequence of determine self-portraits the place the top seems like a drawing, however it’s really a portray. I might take {a photograph} after which have this white paint on high of black paint after which hint an overview from the {photograph}; I might then very rigorously render the top on the canvas with a pencil. So it appeared like a reasonably good realist depiction. However then, on the our bodies, I might have picture illusions of little scraps of paper with all my favourite artists listed or photos from artists like Gorky or Vija Celmins to my father’s head, to an anatomical chart half. And so my physique grew to become artwork historical past or one thing private as an artist factor. Randall Diehl, a pal of Gregory Gillespie’s did this nice self-portrait with tattoos of various artists throughout his physique. I like artwork about artwork.

Backyard of Delights, 2016, 64×32 inches, combined media on canvas

LG:
That’s so fascinating. I seen that in a number of of your work the place you embody some sort of self-portrait, You’re sporting this paint-dripped shirt and pants that look just a little like a mix of a de Kooning and a Hubble photograph of the celebs, making you seem like a cosmic home painter. Is that one thing you made?

Gerry Bergstein:
I made that myself; it’s a t-shirt with black Denims with acrylic poured on high of it. I wore that outfit of the day opening of that present.

LG:
That’s so humorous.

Gerry Bergstein:
Truly, I simply wore the shirt I didn’t put on the pants; that will have been an excessive amount of.

LG:
I’m undecided if  Cosmos is the proper phrase, however there gave the impression to be a motif of the cosmo operating via quite a few your works. I’ve learn that electron microscope imagery of the construction of neural networks within the mind look remarkably just like astronomical photographs that present the bigger patterns of tens of millions of galaxies. Your work typically appeared to talk to this fascinating comparability on some degree.

Gerry Bergstein:
The macro and the micro Sure. Completely. Subatomic and deep house. Sure.

LG:
An amazing concept for a t-shirt!

Gerry Bergstein:
I’m within the cosmos as a result of it’s so superior, mysterious, and non secular. I’m form of an agnostic, however I imagine there’s one thing that I’ll by no means perceive or actually have a clue about; it’s so splendidly mysterious. And then you definitely have a look at the Earth, and we’ve Donald Trump. Definitely not fantastic and mysterious, he’s the exact opposite of that, from the elegant to the ridiculous. I’m all for that challenge too.

LG:
Ugh, please don’t get me began about Trump! I like these new photographs coming from the brand new James Webb Area Telescope. Simply so astounding that we now get this new appreciation of the place we’re within the bigger scheme of issues and the way small and insignificant we’re however on the identical time so uncommon and treasured.

Gerry Bergstein:
I do know, they’re going to have the ability to perhaps get clues of the place there is likely to be life. It’s completely superb.

LG:
I learn a quote from John Walker saying one thing alongside the traces of  ‘…his kinds should have the quantity in order that they might indicate different issues, that his work have to be imbued with feeling. In any other case, it’s simply design or ornament.’ Would you agree with this and care to remark additional? Are you aware him?

Gerry Bergstein:
I don’t know him however I love his work. It’s a high quality line. As somebody who loves Bouguereau and Fragonard – I won’t be the perfect one to reply about sentimentality.(laughs)` I feel there’s a distinction between emotion and sentimentality. There may be loads of feeling in Max Beckmann; There’s loads of feeling in de Kooning. There’s loads of feeling in Vija Celmins. Unusually sufficient. It’s inclusive of feeling, mind, and course of in various proportions or roughly vital to completely different artists. At occasions an artist like Hyman Bloom will get just a little sentimental however it’s a elegant sentimentality. So you recognize, I feel it’s borderline, however artwork could be nothing with out feeling, and artwork could be nothing with out any person’s thoughts and creativeness. Artwork may additionally be nothing with out particular person strategies of individuals develop. So I feel they’re all vital.

Whirl, 2019, 30 × 22 inches, Combined media on paper

LG:
I perceive you might be married to the painter Gail Boyajian who paints unbelievable panoramic landscapes with birds. I seen that certainly one of her work ( Vanitas, 2015 ) consists of the Tower of Babel. And a few of your fruit and flower work present some affinities along with her work.  Regardless of your topics and types being so completely different, there appear to be a number of factors the place they intersect. I’m curious to listen to something you may say about having a painter as a companion.

Gerry Bergstein:
I made these Fruit and Flower work for her; We had one within the background within the place the place we bought married. I first noticed Bruegel’s Tower of Babel portray in 1971 on my first journey to Europe, however I cherished it a lot that I went again later with Gail; there’s a complete room of Bruegel’s work. We each love Bruegel.

Tower, 2019, 44×34 inches, Oil on canvas

LG:
I discover each the story of the Tower of Babel and Bruegel’s portray so compelling – just like the bible saying people want to remain of their lane – don’t evolve with higher ambitions like advances in civilization. To not construct our data, medication, science, and humanity any increased. It exhibits how insecure this God should be to fret about people rising above their station.

Gerry Bergstein:
I see it as human ambition taking up from God, and That’s why he destroyed it, and it’s hubris, and it’s the form of like power-seeking or understanding all the pieces or which we by no means can do as a result of (goddamn) God made us so we couldn’t do it. (laughs)  However I can see your level; I feel it’s the alternative aspect of the identical coin. It’s in regards to the folly of ambition and energy. However alternatively, that’s all we’ve, and I like ambition and energy. It’s a double-edged sword.

LG: 
Sorry, I interrupted you, please proceed speaking about your spouse.

Gerry Bergstein:
It’s a very fascinating relationship. She hardly ever watches tv. She doesn’t know what Mad Journal was. She doesn’t know the New Wave music I used to take heed to. However she’s a complete knowledgeable on Henry James and George Eliot. So once we first bought collectively, we vowed that I might learn Portrait of a Girl, and he or she was going to observe LA Legislation. (laughs) So she watched one episode of LA Legislation, and I learn one chapter of Portrait of a Girl, and we’ve been arguing about it ever since. However now we’re beginning to come collectively within the heart. I learn an ideal biography of Henry James lately; I used to be fascinated by it as a result of he was an formidable insecure man, identical to the remainder of us. (laughs) So we’ve nice discussions, and he or she’s a great critic of sure issues in my work, like the place one thing is spatially. So we’re encouraging and serving to one another in our work. Since our work is so completely different, we’re not aggressive with one another. She has a unique form of ambition than I do. My ambition is altering as I grow old, just a little extra contemplative. I’m not so anxious.

E book II, Fragile Sky, 2016, 21×32.5 inches, combined media on paper

LG:
As you grow old, are you engaged on a smaller scale?

Gerry Bergstein:
Truly, it’s getting larger; it’s getting each larger and smaller.

LG:
The size of so lots of your works is large. I’m curious; some painters I’ve talked to begin to work smaller as a result of they don’t have the space for storing or different causes, however you promote most of your work, in order that’s most likely not a difficulty, proper?

Physique Politic, 2019, 88×102 inches, oil on canvas

Gerry Bergstein:
I don’t promote an enormous quantity of labor. I just like the folks on the Naga Gallery–they’re actually trustworthy and useful. However I feel a few of my newer work is just too fragile and enormous, I don’t know why I like  to maintain doing it. I assume I’m an fool. (laughs) Possibly working bigger is a response to mortality. I’ve had a number of well being issues; nothing will kill me imminently. However I understand, in a method, I by no means have earlier than, that that is going to finish, and I need to get my final shot in or one thing. Final 12 months I labored on three tremendous massive work, the biggest of which was 90 by 112 inches. That took over a 12 months, and now I’m returning to considerably smaller work.

LG:
The inhabitants explosion of painters over the previous a number of a long time has made the competitors to point out and promote work impossibly stiff, particularly in a higher-end market the place somebody may make sufficient to reside on. Work are sometimes valued much less for inventive benefit and extra for saleability or advertising and marketing. What opinion are you able to share about this dynamic? 

Gerry Bergstein:
That’s an fascinating query as a result of I like to promote work, and I’m all the time fantasizing about promoting work, but when I had been extra all for promoting, I’d make very completely different work. So it’s a combined bag. I do work that’s tough after which complain if nobody needs it. (laughs)  I do give it some thought, actually, however I don’t let it intervene with decision-making within the precise act of portray. It’s a balancing act.

Idea and Apply, 2019, 22×30 inches, Oil on Paper

LG:
It appears to me that for some artists, the extra they attempt to make it sellable, the more serious it will get. The vital factor is to give attention to the integrity of the work, which you do. 

Gerry Bergstein: 
It’s actually laborious. Placing your self out on the planet. It’s essential. I do it reluctantly, however I do it. Nevertheless, I do it much less as I’m getting older. I’m exhibiting much less and getting out on the planet.  Covid, after all, was little bit of a damper. (laughs)

LG:
How a lot ought to younger painters care in regards to the business potential of their paintings? What recommendation may you provide the youthful technology of painters developing?

Gerry Bergstein:
They need to be desirous about making pals with different artists. That’s good for dialogue of the work and likewise good for introductions. I bought my begin from a pal who launched me to a supplier and bought a present. I most likely would have by no means performed that alone. However you’ll be able to go too far in both course. I agree with you. College students want some form of dialogue of what occurs proper after college and tips on how to survive, tips on how to survive with a day job, and have a purpose to work themselves as much as. As shy as I used to be, when my work began getting good, about 1980, and I started to face behind my work, I didn’t have any drawback exhibiting it to folks, however earlier than that, I used to be all the time just a little shaky, and perhaps for a great purpose. Even now, I don’t usually ship my work out to sellers very a lot in different cities. I used to do this. I confirmed in locations aside from Boston. 

I feel younger artists must know that it’s a tough enterprise. They should be very persistent in order that they may luck out and have a present and promote once they’re very younger, which comes with its personal difficulties. Or they may should work for a number of years. I had I’ve had college students for whom I write letters of advice to get into graduate college yearly for ten years, after which lastly, they get accepted. I feel it takes a very long time to discover ways to paint. There may be one girl I taught; not solely did she get into grad college, however now she’s getting these instructing jobs. She’s an ideal panorama painter, and if she hadn’t labored for eight or 9 years with out a lot recognition, It could have been unhappy as a result of she’s doing terrific work.

In the event you get discouraged and need to give up, that’s your online business. I’ve additionally had painters who bought out of grad college and began exhibiting in galleries a 12 months later and offered their work for some huge cash, after which–identical to that–it ends. They will’t work out what else to do. No matter you’re doing, it’s important to be in it for the lengthy haul, be trustworthy with your self and let the chips fall the place they might. The entire thing in regards to the overblown artwork market, work promoting for a whole lot of tens of millions of {dollars}, is obscene. However the different query is that if I may promote a portray for 100 million {dollars}, I guess I might! (laughs) I nonetheless assume it’s obscene. Artists need to make a residing, perhaps even a cushty residing, however this commodification stuff, with folks, are shopping for artwork for the mistaken causes, is terrible. The younger artist has to navigate commodification in addition to having the ability to navigate socializing and friendships. They should be assertive and get their work on the market and don’t count on it all the time to work out, to have a thick pores and skin. Making use of for grants and the like, it’s a crapshoot. And you recognize, Possibly if you happen to’re fortunate, you’ll get one in 20 tries, so simply maintain doing it.

Treehouse, 2019, 36 × 30 inches, Oil on canvas

 

LG:
Do you’ve got a present developing in some unspecified time in the future within the close to future?

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, in September 2023 on the Naga Gallery.

LG:
You’ll be exhibiting these new massive work you talked about there?

Gerry Bergstein:
I’ve some small ones to point out too. The Gallery Naga is so nice; they encourage you to take extra dangers and never be anxious about what folks assume; they’re very supportive. I’m blissful about that.

LG:
From what I do know, it’s a superb gallery with a splendidly various vary of painters. 

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, they do.

LG:
Many galleries are having a tough time on this financial system and all. Are they doing okay?

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, the Naga is wholesome as a result of they’re good enterprise folks. Since covid, it has sophisticated issues for all of the galleries.

LG:
is Arthur Dion nonetheless the director?

Gerry Bergstein:
No, Arthur retired. Meg White changed him. Arthur has turn into a really severe Buddhist.

LG:
Is Buddhism one thing that pursuits you as effectively? It’s been vital for a lot of painters, like Gregory Gillespie

Gerry Bergstein:
Solely peripherally. I’ve tried meditation, however I’m so unhealthy at it. David Sipress had an ideal cartoon, of a person elevating his hand in a meditation class saying,  “I’m desirous about not considering, is that appropriate?” (laughs)  And that’s what occurs to me after I meditate. I do it occasionally, and it’s useful if I’m anxious about one thing. How about you, do you meditate?

LG:
No, nonetheless,  after lunch, I wish to take heed to classical music in an nearly asleep, dreamlike state for 20 minutes or so. It’s rejuvenating. I don’t assume it’s meditating, although, however it works for me.
Do you paint whereas listening to music?

Gerry Bergstein:
Classical music, sure! I like chamber music. After I began this new sequence of work, I listened completely to the chamber music of Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert, and Mendelssohn, whereas I used to be portray and it was so inspiring. I additionally love rock music.

Whitewash, 2019, 30X70 inches, Oil on canvas

LG:
Do you ever fear in regards to the music influencing the portray an excessive amount of on some degree?
Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, I’ve heard that; perhaps that’s true. And I used to all the time till I used to be till about 1990 I listened to music consistently within the studio. Both classical or new wave, Punk or no matter. After which out of the blue I began listening to the information…

LG:
Oh no, that’s fairly unhappy as of late. (laughs)

Gerry Bergstein:
After which now I’m again listening to music. However not fairly as a lot, I’ve to remind myself. However after I’m doing it, I like it.

LG:
I really feel that I need to paint as a lot as I can. If I spent all my time portray with no music, then I’d by no means get to take heed to music. Life’s laborious sufficient; you may as effectively get pleasure from it wherever you’ll be able to!

Gerry Bergstein:
Precisely. I agree; I like music; I feel it’s the very best artwork kind.

LG:
Typically I think about what musician could be most like a sure painter, what musician would I equate them with? Possibly your musical doppelgänger could be Frank Zappa, would that be honest?

Gerry Bergstein:
Completely!, We’re in it Just for the Cash is certainly one of my all-time favourite albums.

LG:
A humorous factor – that album I heard was a part of a undertaking that Zappa referred to as No Commerical Potential – but it was such an enormous success. One other instance of the significance of being true to your artistic self.

Gerry Bergstein:
I additionally take heed to John Coltrane and Charlie Mingus. Typically I think about the blacks in my portray remind me of somebody taking part in the cello, like a Bach Cello Suite or one thing. So it’s a variety.
However then, I’ll take heed to Little Richard the subsequent day. I need to have Beethoven’s Grosse Fugue, adopted by Chuck Berry’s Roll Over Beethoven, performed at my funeral.

LG:
That sounds good. Let’s hope that gained’t be for a lot of, a few years sooner or later.

Fortress, 2022, 26X40 inches, oil on paper